BUNCH OF MAIL - LATEST AT THE BOTTOM --- --- --- --- Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 16:38:34 +0100 Subject: Berwyn Mountain UFO Documentary I received this mail today from the Birmingham UFO Group so I am passing it all who may have an interest in the case. ----- Dear UFO Enthusiasts, I am sending out this account following the outrageous Channel 5 TV documentary on the Berwyn Mountain Incident on Wednesday July 2nd 2008, a programme created by Firefly Productions and part of a series on the UKs closest UFO encounters. Please pass this on to as many of your fellow UFO enthusiasts as possible. This will go some way to showing just how much the programme was slanted in favour of the debunkers. It should also demonstrate a little the appalling methods used by these people to divert attention away from UFOs and in particular, away from this Berwyn Mountain incident and no doubt others in the series. I will be ensuring that this information is given to as much of the North Wales population as possible through all channels and especially to the residents of Llandrillo who have once again been fed drivel and treated like idiots. I will be ensuring this too to keep the local populous interested in reporting their sightings to anyone involved with the Wales Fellowship Of Independent Ufologists, spearheaded by veteran Ufologist Mrs Margaret Fry. Margaret has asked me to advise North Wales residents not to give their sightings reports to anyone not residing in the region and who cannot fully investigate such. She has concluded that often even well meaning people can inadvertently alienate locals and especially Welsh speaking locals. Following the programme, there is an atmosphere of resentment already appearing towards 'outsiders' who rubbish and belittle the locals. Anyone who watched it must have been shocked at the degree of imbalance and not withstanding the fact that a decision had been taken by the programme's commissioning editor to edit out anything and everything which while not proving the existence of a UFO on the Berwyn Mountain range on January 23rd 1974, would certainly have balanced the content or most probably, would have tipped the balance in great favour of something 'exotic' having occurred that night. I am personally peeved because I was asked and filmed to demonstrate how all of the debunking literature so far produced was fabricated, the facts twisted and who had lied. It is an open secret that I have been invited to write a comprehensive chapter in a forthcoming book of a well known British UFO researcher on the Berwyn event. The content is based on documents which I've received under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, some of which, no other investigator has managed to obtain and how I have discovered where exactly on Cader Berwyn the UFO seen actually rested. What is significant, is that I have irrefutable proof that the debunking version of events portrayed by Andy Roberts in his 'Welsh Roswell' is based on lies, half truths and supposition. I showed some of this to the filming team and whilst filming up on the Berwyn Mountains range, I was able to show how the debunkers have tried to claim that Police, poachers, farmers etc were on Cader Berwyn and that **E** and her two daughters, D**** and T***, were mistaken, seeing Police torches surrounding a poacher's lamp when these apparent 'criminals' were stopped and spoken to by the Police. The TV programme itself was a litany of blatant lies. The former Assistant Chief Constable Elfed Roberts though relating his experiences was very conservative with the truth and lied at least once. He lied by saying at one point, that an officer(s) left the commandeered vehicle belonging to Huw Lloyd's parents and flashed torches about. This was a pathetic attempt to try and prop up Andy Roberts' assertion that **E** saw Police torches. Huw **L** the teenage farmer at the time, was filmed and testified that at no time did any Police officer leave the vehicle to look around nor, did any use of torches take place. That was edited out and the Police officer given free reign to state otherwise. It was suggested that only two police officers were present at that point; there was at least four, possibly five. Huw could not recall exactly, but certainly more than three and none was local or known to him. Andy Roberts stuck to his version of events, despite the fact that his 'poachers' who were not poachers at all, stated that they had packed in lamping by 9.15 pm. The Police were inspecting their vehicle partly blocking the track up the mountain at 9.20 pm. Please note, that **E** and daughters did not arrive anywhere on the range until 10 pm that night. 45 minutes after the poacher's departed. So whatever she saw, it was not a poacher's lamp. Further to that, she has constantly been portrayed as being somewhere near to the poaching and Police search activities. The truth is, that **E** was deliberately subverted by North Wales Police and that is why she ended up on the B 4391, and four miles from the Police search above Llandrillo, and thus four miles from any headlamp, torch or anything even if there when she arrived at her vantage point. The Police were searching for a suspected plane crash on Cader Bronwen Mountain above Llandrillo, based on reports of an explosion sound accompanying the earth tremor rumblings and then seeing lights above the village over the ridge known as Cefn Pen Llety. Debunkers have continually tried to suggest that events occurred on Cader Berwyn Mountain where **E** and her daughters observed the UFO. I will reiterate, that at no time whatsoever was any Police officer or civilian at large on Cader Berwyn and that there was absolutely no connection between the UFO and Llandrillo village. Also, no one in Llandrillo could possibly see anything on Cader Berwyn or even Cader Bronwen. Both mountains and peaks are obscured by lower hill slopes and ridges. **E** was subverted by North Wales Police because she did not get through to them offering her medical assistance until just before 9.30pm. At 9.10 pm, the Police had already opened a major incident log and Police officers were in Huw **L**'s yard. Yet, when **E** spoke to the Police, she was not directed from Llandderfel (where she lived) to Llandrillo. She was given no idea of where to go to assist and by her own volition, took the B4391 to gain a vantage point. This [police] action was premeditated and supports other actions to deter civilian interest in events that night. Thus, she stumbled upon the UFO purely by chance. The irony here, is that Huw **L** has testified that Police Officers from Bala and from Barmouth too (over an hour's drive in those days??), were in his yard at 9.10 pm, and had to pass Llandderfel where **E** lived to reach Llandrillo and the route onto Cader Bronwen. One of those Policemen was Elfed Roberts. In that documentary, he must have known that **E** was treated in this way. The Police did not tell **E** to go to Llandrillo because her assistance was unwanted. Elfed Roberts along with the other Policemen present saw nothing on Cader Bronwen, though all including Huw **L** saw for a few seconds, a bright white light south towards Cader Berwyn which lasted a few seconds and then subsided. Huw **L** testified to that, but that fact was omitted from the programme, and Elfed Roberts chose not to mention it! Bearing in mind that the earth tremor which occurred that evening and which led locals and Police to believe a plane had crashed above Llandrillo, was at approx' 8.40 pm, twelve hours would pass before it was light enough to continue any search the next day. In 12 hours, the Civil Aviation and Military Authorities would know if an aircraft was missing, yet the search continued aided by, a three man search and rescue team from RAF Valley in Anglesey. The Police requested search assistance and the RAF sent a three man team which arrived late on the evening of the tremor and sighting. In the programme, Andy Roberts played down that military presence and suggested that military 'vehicles' seen in Llandrillo by locals created the belief of a military presence and covert activities. There was a three man team, in ONE vehicle. Incidentally, all the details of every search and rescue operation conducted by the RAF Valley team for 1974 are missing. As far as the MoD is concerned, no RAF personnel was involved in an operation requested by the Police at any time in 1974. I also presented to the film crew evidence that steps were taken to deny the use of civilian mountain rescue enthusiasts who knew the Berwyn Range intimately. Such had been used before but not on this occasion. Mr Roberts in his Welsh Roswell has insisted that the locals have it wrong and that they confused matters with large military presences at military air crashes in 1972 and 1982. Such a presence giving credence to the UFO fraternity claim that soldiers sealed off the mountain range in order to extract a crashed alien vehicle. I could concur a little with the 1982 event, but I believe the 1972 event was invented to enhance the case against the locals. I believe this because I have in my possession a full listing of all military air crashes in North Wales in 1972 and I can state that no air craft crashed in that year anywhere near the Berwyn range. Three were on Anglesey and one near Llanbedr air field on the west coast. In debunking literature, reference is made to this '72 crash and this has often been repeated, but not one sceptic promoting this has so far published details of the craft, its occupants, airfield of origin etc. Nothing. I also have details of all military and civilian air crashes for near surrounding years and again, nothing crashed anywhere near the Berwyn Range. In 1968 there was a crash near the summit of Cader Bronwen with several fatalities. Mr Roberts also attempts to elaborate the debunking case by suggesting that the air crash in 1982 involved a plane carrying top secret gear. That is absolute rubbish. I have a full account of the event from the military and the pilot was a simple lone student flyer on a routine sortie in a training plane. I have the crash map reference number and details of the three farmers who received compensation from the MoD for damage to land during the text book recovery operation. Indeed, Huw **L**'s father escorted the American pilot's parents to the crash site at a later date. As regards the earth tremor that night. It was quite violent. However, the programme tried to give credence to Jenny Randles and her earth light theory by overtly moving the epicentre of the quake 9 miles, to make it appear under Cader Bronwen. That is a blatant lie to the viewing audience. Earth lights if they exist, would occur on the stress points of the fault lines. The epicentre of the quake was 5 - 7000 metres below Bala itself. Firefly editorship moved this to directly below Cader Bronwen to coincide with Jenny's theory. Even the British Geological Survey which is involved in the official cover up of this event, knows the epicentre point and does not deny that. Yes, all the big guns were dragged into this documentary to put down interest in the event. Ron Madison engaged the RAF to overfly the range to search for a meteorite impact crater - try and get the photos. The programme claimed the team was there for four days, yet the next day, the BGS arrived having confirmed that an earth tremor had occurred. Ron Madison and associates carried on looking for a meteor impact crater despite confirmation that the explosion heard was linked to an earth tremor. That though didn't stop there. The three man RAF team which officially ceased its search just after 2 pm, was then seen on Cader Berwyn later that day. Of course the programme played down the search and rescue presence as officially, it did not take place. As regards the guest appearance of Dr Roger Musson, well, what can I say? I have, just two days before the airing of the programme, received documents from the British Geological Survey following a formal complaint and internal investigation conducted by the Director of that organisation. Roger Musson is a personal friend of Andy Roberts, and guards the records regarding the Bala earth quake with a zeal unheard of. Much of Andy's debunking literature is based on documents purportedly held by the BGS. Roger Musson has obstructed me for two years in my getting access to those BGS documents. And why? Why indeed? I can assure readers of this, that those BGS documents do not show Police, poachers lights etc in the same small area of mountain side where **E** saw them as claimed by Andy Roberts. Any references are on Cader Bronwen, miles from **E**'s position on the B4391 road. **E** must have had exceptional eyesight to see a non existent home made hunting lamp four miles away along with, Police torches - simple two cell affairs in those days. With Roger Musson guarding the documentary evidence that Andy Roberts has enhanced, there has been little chance thus far of getting to the truth. Andy Roberts cannot now stand by the debacle of a debunking exercise he has written and published as to do so would show an unprecedented arrogance and contempt for genuine witnesses involved in a genuine event. To continue to stand by that false literature is to call the hunters liars, Huw **L** a liar and the **E** family liars amongst others. The North Wales edition of the Daily Post ran a story about gamekeeper Geraint Edwards on July 2nd the same day as the programme aired. It meant nothing to me at the time, but seeing the programme made me realise that the quotes in the newspaper article by Geraint and Elfed Roberts the excop were identical to the wording used in the programme. So, someone had given access to the Daily Post to the programme content in advance of the airing a leak, by accident or design. Yet I was specifically asked by the filming team representatives not to discuss the filming until the show aired. Of course, the input from the former gamekeeper and also the camcorder shots taken in 2000, had no bearing whatsoever on the subject of a 23rd of January 1974 UFO incident. They were a poor attempt to show some input by witnesses as if coming from pro UFO people. No pro UFO people were given air time on that programme. My input simply showed that the opposition to the UFO presence could not be allowed to be shown as incorrect or blatantly false. I demonstrated this in clinical detail and then an editorial decision was taken to erase that input. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Naturally Firefly got only snippets of information from me but it was enough. I can't prove an alien craft was on the slopes of Cader Berwyn in 1974, but I can prove that most of the material used for years to debunk it is false. The sceptics have simply relied on apathy to get away with this and obstruction by friends and friends of friends. This is my personal opinion of the programme which has now aired. I have been informed that another UFO enthusiast was approached about the South Wales Welsh Triangle and after some information was supplied, Firefly simply did not contact the guy again. I knew this, and on his behalf, sent several emails and text messages to Firefly asking them nothing more than to get in touch and inform the guy where he stood. Nothing. No acknowledgement to me or contact between them and the said Ufologist. Persons linked to the forthcoming Warminster coverage are now gravely concerned about how their input will be portrayed. If however, the remaining documentaries are balanced, it will make viewers suspicious that concerted efforts have been made to quell interest in the Berwyn Mountain UFO event. Thank you. Scott L. Felton www.conwyufogroup.piczo.com conwyufogroup at hotmail.co.uk --- --- --- --- Contacted Scott Felton immediately; because it seems we've all been misled, and for many years, about everything - events, timings and locations - concerning that night and next day on the Berwyns. Scott's answer (edited) is below - --- --- --- --- Hi Ray, Thanks for the email [edit] you have my consent to use any part of what I've circulated. As you will be aware, that info' is in relation to the way Firefly Productions was involved in this. To be fair, the Director of the film crew was the guy who broke the bad news to me and cited the 'Commissioning Editor' as the person who took the decision to remove me and my evidence from the programme. It is no longer a case of whether an alien vehicle was on Cader Berwyn as seen by **E** and her daughters, but about the lengths some people have gone to, to debunk the event. You will know no doubt that arch debunker Andy Roberts has published his account of the incident being a non event. A substantial part of his case was based on documents held by the British Geological Survey. A Dr Roger Musson who it transpires is a personal friend of Andy Roberts and a 'fellow Fortean' I might add, is in charge of the records relating to the earth tremor which occurred that night on Jan 23rd 1974. Musson has fought tooth and nail to deny me access to those same and other records. His motive for this turns out to be that the records show no such thing as claimed by Roberts. Andy Roberts has relied on others like me not getting access to the records to disprove his fabrications. Musson has claimed for a long time that maps do not exist, despite these being clearly quoted in Roberts' false version of events. Under appeal and after an internal investigation, the Director of the BGS finally sent me the maps I requested under the FOIA and they arrived just two days before the programme aired. I had no prior notice that Dr Musson would appear in that documentary. Clearly too, it would have been a major embarrassment to the BGS if he tried to debunk Berwyn knowing that an investigation was on-going. You can include this above in your write-up too. What Firefly filmed was but a tiny piece of the info' I have amassed about all their nefarious activities. Because so many agencies are involved, it is difficult for them all to conspire effectively. I have a current and outstanding FOIA request in to North Wales Police as I write. That has been ongoing now for some months. I requested the names of all the Police Officers in and sent to Llandrillo and who went up onto the mountain with teenage (at the time) farmer Huw **L**. I had to complain when my request was ignored. Then I complained and NWP [North Wales Police] said that they'd supply the info' and to date, nothing. NWP does not want me to get that info', because other officers present but who are no longer in the force could be contacted and they would incriminate the likes of the former assistant chief constable in the programme, Elfed Roberts who lied and suggested that only two officers were present. There was at least four and others following later in the evening. They met as Huw's vehicle returned off the mountain. Sadly for Andy Roberts, **E** saw her object on Cader Berwyn and was four miles from Llandrillo. Hunters with lamps who were on Cader Bronwen (another mountain in the Berwyn Range and above Llandrillo), had left by 9.15 pm and **E** did not arrive at her vantage point until 10 pm. Roberts has suggested that poachers with lamps (there were none), met Police on Cader Berwyn Mountain and that **E**'s UFO was their hunting lamp and her twinkling 'fairy lights' were Police torches. There was no poachers, nor did any Police meet poachers. No Police alighted from Huw's vehicle or used torches. And even if they did, they were on a totally different mountain anyway. But they did not. Huw **L** testified to that fact on film, but it was edited out and the Editor permitted Elfed Roberts to rant on and state that torches were used and less officers were present than was true. The Editor even moved the earthquake epicentre 9 miles from below Bala, to 1 mile from Llandrillo and under Cader Bronwen, just to support Jenny Randles' theory on earth lights accounting for the UFO. Andy Roberts has faked the account for years and Jenny Randles is simply wrong. Any earth lights would be along the Bala fault line which is no where near the Berwyn Range. As you can see, lie after lie, after lie has been told to convince the Public that the UFO presence was not. In retrospect, the UFO fraternity is not totally blameless. I can assure you that the earth tremor was a natural if coincidental event and no UFO crashed or was retrieved though some physical surface evidence was seemingly removed covertly. Certainly no UFO caused the tremor. That is ridiculous and would have caused a crater hundreds of metres wide and deep in solid rock. Same too if a meteor had struck to cause the quake. Forget alien bodies too. There were none. It was a simple alien craft sitting on the side of Cader Berwyn in a remote spot and I believe being present near to an approaching seismic event. **E** stumbled upon it by accident having taken the B 4391 Bala to Llangynog road over the Berwyn Range. as she was not asked by NWP to go to Llandrillo, despite the fact that their officers were on Cader Bronwen with Huw **L** at 9.15 pm, some 15 minutes before she got through to them, and officers had actually passed her village to get there from Bala itself. The Police had even opened a major incident log at 9.10 pm, yet did not tell Pat Evans where exactly to go to assist in her medical capacity. Shocking. Anyway, I hope this helps. I've been invited to write a chapter on this in a forthcoming book by a well known UFO author, so all will be revealed. You can in the mean time use what was circulated and this email too if ... [edit]. Please advise. Cheers Scott. --- --- --- --- Thanked Scott for his ready sharing of information - and asked a couple more questions which Scott answered immediately. --- --- --- --- >From: Ray Dickenson >To: conwyufogroup at hotmail.co.uk >Subject: Re: Re: Your Berwyns Account >Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:30:25 +0100 > ... > With the help of your latest message, it's possible I might be able > to make an HTML page on the affair. > Couple of questions - > 1) have you any idea of the actual sight-line **E** was looking along > when she saw the object. As you said in the first account, the mountains > up there have convex `shoulders' blocking the view from below. > Looking at Google Maps (Terrain) I would think there's only a few valleys > or passes where long views are possible. > 2) Those Barmouth policemen - do you have any idea if they'd been called > from Barmouth for this operation? In which case the police were aware of > something by 8:00 pm approximately. Or were they Barmouth police who were > already in the area before this police operation started? > I'd be interested in seeing your contribution to the new book - please > let me know when it's due out. Thanks again, have a lot on my plate for > some days; hope to let you know if I change the text file after that. > Best > Ray From: Scott Felton To: Ray Dickenson Subject: RE: Your Berwyns Account Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:19:16 +0000 Ah, A thinking man. Good. I currently have an outstanding FOIA request to North Wales Police in part requesting the identity of all the Police officers who were sent to Llandrillo. This is because **L**, who took at least four officers up onto Cader Bronwen, did not recognise any of the officers, including one who claimed to be from Bala. Huw claims two stated that they came from Barmouth. As you state quite correctly, for this to have happened, Police Officers were already being sent to the locale. I have had to complain once when the Police ignored my request and the legal time for a response expired. I was then promised the info' - I have that in writing from NWP, but I'm still waiting. I may have to appeal. If you have an OS map of the area, you will note a rough straight line travelling along the River Dee valley from Bala, to Llandderfel, to Llandrillo, to Cynwyd and then Corwen. Officers from Bala and beyond (Barmouth one hour away) travelled past Llandderfel from Bala to Llandrillo. They were in **L**'s farmyard at 9.05 pm and departing at 9.10 pm. This latter time, same time as the Police opened a major incident log regarding a suspected plane crash on Cader Bronwen above the village. At 9.15 pm the party encountered the hunter's (poacher's) vehicle partly blocking the lane up to C. [Cader] Bronwen, from **L** Farm in Llandrillo where Huw lived. **E**, residing in Llandderfel, spoke to the Police just before 9.30 pm offering her medical expertise as district nurse. But instead of sending her to Llandrillo where the Police were searching, they simply told her to go up to the mountain (no name) but this suggesting the Berwyn Range in general. With no directions given to a suspected incident with casualties, she of her own volition, took the B 4391 which goes over the Berwyn Range, from Bala to Llangynog. Some two thirds of a mile short of the county boundary at a place called Milltir Gerrig, she saw the UFO. From there, one can see much of the Berwyn Range northwards towards Corwen, though you cannot see Corwen from there. At that point, it is four miles as the crow flies to the fields above Llandrillo which form part of the slope up to Cader Bronwen peak, where the Police and Huw were driving around. Between Cader Bronwen and the B 4391 road is Cader Berwyn and its sub-peak Moel Sych. The UFO actually rested on the slope of Moel Sych but for simplicity, is Cader Berwyn. All activity was four miles at least from **E** and by the time she got to her vantage point at 10 pm, everyone on Cader Bronwen was gone and there was nothing on Cader Berwyn but the UFO. Andy Roberts 'moved' the hunters, Police and everything else from Cader Bronwen to Cader Berwyn and changed the times to fit his claim that **E** saw the lamp used by the hunters. I am a game keeper by profession and have spent several decades hunting, shooting and fishing etc, and when I first read his account, I knew it was wrong. Lamping is a highly mobile activity but Roberts did not realise this and so claimed that her 'light' was a poacher's (but very static) lamp. The terrain was wrong, the quarry habitat was wrong and I knew anyway that in the '70s, the land was 'keepered, so no one would overtly advertise themselves with a lamp in open countryside and just sit there. That got me onto Mr Roberts' scent. Then I started being obstructed by his cronies in the BGS and so on. Hope this is useful. Cheers Scott --- --- --- --- Scott Felton has received information --- --- --- --- Subject: FW: keep up the good work! Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:44:48 +0000 Hi There, I've secured the consent of Leigh Richards of Swansea, South Wales, UK, to forward an email he sent to me regarding Firefly Productions which was involved in the recent attempt to debunk the 1974 Berwyn Mountain UFO Event. Please pass this on. Thank you. Scott L. Felton. Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:35:41 +0000 Subject: keep up the good work! Dear Scott i was sorry to read of the difficulties you have encountered with firefly productions regarding the recent production of their documentary series 'Britain's closest encounters'. I found your excellent conwy ufo group site by chance while looking for information on google about the ufo sceptic andy roberts featured in the programme last week. As someone who has long been interested in the intriguing subject of ufos - if in a purely amateur sense - i for one was not taken in by his somewhat spurious 'poacher's lamp' explanation for whatever pat evans saw that nite. I was therefore delighted to come across your site and all the invaluable accurate firsthand information it carried on the berwyn mountains incident. I understand tomorrow's edition of the series is featuring the famous 1970's welsh triangle - an episode close to my heart as it was as a result of reading the extraordinary reports coming out of the area as a 11 year old boy that my lifelong interest in ufos began. I have read all the books and visited the area and am still not sure what was going on down there in the late 1970s but dont rule out the possibility of something unearthly occuring there. Like you i hope the programme makers give a fair balanced account of events - but im not banking on it! Incidentally like yourself im a firm believer in the extraterrestial hypothesis for ufos ie they are real physical craft piloted by real beings.To me the so called paranormal explanation seems at best to be bit of a cop out. In its own way as unlikely as the explanation from that awful psychologist who always seems to pop up - chris french - that 'they imagined it'. But what i really wanted to say to you was well done on the site! Just being there for others like myself to be able to read and try to discover what is really going on in our skies in wales makes it invaluable. Not to mention its viital role in rebutting the claims of obvious 'proffessional' sceptics like Andy Roberts. Also hope you dont mind but earlier i took the trouble of researching firefly productions and came up with i feel some 'interesting' results. I have included the relevant links for you to check out yourself should you wish to Cheers, Leigh Richards,Swansea, south wales. http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/news/shine_completes_firefly_purchase.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jul/06/rupertmurdoch.mediabusiness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Murdoch_(businesswoman) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shine_Limited --------------------------------------------------- Some background - it's been a long-running and complex cover-up - is at www.perceptions.couk.com/present.html#ans-ber --------------------------------------------------- FURTHER REFERENCES GO - "search perceptions" - in SEARCH-ENGINE file-ID www.perceptions.couk.com/berwyn-ufo.txt